Hey, everyone! Guess what day it is! It's the Insecure Writer's Support Group posting day! Ok, I'll stop with the exclamation points. No, wait, one more...today I have the honor of being a co-host!! Oops, that was two. Anyway, as always, the IWSG is hosted by Alex J. Cavanaugh, and my fellow co-hosts this month are Joylene Nowell Butler, Lily Eva, and Rhonda Albom. Don't forget to check out the IWSG website, too!
So what am I insecure about this month? Still working on the third draft of my book and not getting as much done as quickly as I'd like. Despite my efforts, I keep gaining weight every week, but I'm really determined to eat better and exercise more, since my will power usually tends to fizzle out by Wednesday. And (this isn't necessarily an insecurity, but it is driving me nuts...) my birthday is this Saturday and my present from my fiance has been sitting on my dresser since LAST Saturday. *sigh* I really don't like to ruin surprises, but come on, it's not fair! And it's heavy, too, so I know there's more than one thing in there...Anyway, this is what has really been bugging me lately: SETTING. It's something that continuously perplexes me, to the point where I feel I'll never get it right. Ok, so my novel takes place in New York City, a place I've visited many many times--but I've never lived there. And my MC has always lived there, grew up there, and I worry that this won't be believable because I haven't. For the majority of my novel, there isn't much to worry about. The characters are usually very isolated and the two main settings are their apartments. So within the confines of those scenes, I really don't have to worry about setting. I also like the juxtaposition of them having to be so isolated in such a busy and populated city. But those moments when they do go out into the world--I worry that I haven't gotten it right.
I also did some research that worried me about the accuracy of my book. So when I first started writing it, I knew my MC was a freshman and that he was failing his math class. When I was a freshman, I took Geometry. Back in middle school, some people were able to move on to Pre-algebra in 7th grade, where others took another year of a more basic math class. So while some freshmen took Geometry when they got to 9th grade, others were taking their first year of Algebra. Anyway, since I took Geometry, and I figured my MC is a smart and clever guy, he probably would, too. So that's how I wrote the story.
But the more research I do on the NY school system, the more I feel that this wouldn't be possible. From what I've found, it seems that all students take Algebra in their freshman year, then Geometry as a sophomore (doing internet research is tricky, so if by some miracle someone reading this went to school in NY, I beg you, enlighten me!). If this is true, it throws a giant wrench in my plot. I really can't change his math class to Algebra at this point--Geometry just works better as far as how I've worked in themes and symbolism. There's also a scene where my characters are solving a geometric proof that I seriously CANNOT cut. I can't. It's too good, and too important. I also can't make my MC older, since his age is important to the plot. So what should I do?
I'm wondering if it actually matters. What is more important, being true to the story, or being accurate with the structure of the school system? Is anyone really going to notice if I get it wrong? It's not like it's on every page of the book. Is this a detail that should matter at all? I'm not sure. I may just be over-thinking this. My gut is telling me to leave it be, and if someone calls me out on it, I can explain how I thought being true to the story was more important than getting one tiny detail right.
Phew! Ok, now that I've vented, I've got a lot of blogs to visit. *cracks knuckles* Off I go!
Oh boy, I know the feels. As someone who is writing sci-fi and using terms I'm not completely familiar with (and guns, I live in the UK!) I am at risk of making this mistake alllll the time, and having to research all the time too.
ReplyDeleteTo a degree, I honestly think it depends on the kind of story you're telling and where you're trying to get the reader to focus. Take 50 Shades for example. Due to E.L Jame's age, she had no idea how unbelievable it sounded for a student in their late teens/early twenties to not have an e-mail address (because at that age, E.L probably didn't.) But...who cared, right? No one's reading that for the accuracy of age/technology - "when does dick meet vagina?" that's what they want to know.
My story has a sci-fi background but it's more about the relationships and growth of the characters. I'd say your story is the same. The part you're worrying about is the set up, and that's the thing with set up, once "set up" the story goes "whooosh" and then it's like "geometry what? No, no, I past that page ages ago. The story's not about that anymore". LOL :D
Also, that particular set up is nothing far fetched, I'd say leave it in and let the agent decide.
I'd also say no, you simply can't change that scene.
LOL I knew you would say that! Can you imagine if I had to gut the proof scene?! *shudders* It's so perfect, it would just break my heart.
DeleteI agree with the idea of the "set up" --once it's established, no one is going to really care anymore.
Sarah, you're right--No one is really going to care. Being a writer you make it sound believable and people reading will believe it.
ReplyDeleteWe can't visit every location. It helps that you've been there and have a sense of things. TORN CANVAS also has a section set in New York. I've done everything I could to get a sense of the place but no one can share the smells, and the humidity or cold. Oh, well. For my SciFi I can't visit except in my mind. :D
ReplyDeleteHI there! I remember this writing tip from Stephen King about research:
ReplyDelete"The research shouldn’t overshadow the story. “Remember that word back. That’s where the research belongs: as far in the background and the back story as you can get it.”
Hope that helps!
Re: Setting in general... Sounds like you need to put a call out among your writing buds for a New Yorker or two and ask them to beta read for you.
ReplyDeleteAs a native Texan, I wouldn't have picked up on the Geometry thing (where I grew up, students were placed in math according to ability), but anyone familiar with the New York school system might. Can you work in a reason WHY your MC is already in Geometry at his age? Surely they have a way to deal with kids who are advanced or who transfer from another district that has a different scope and sequence.
Most readers will just sit back and enjoy the story, but those who know the city might ding you in reviews if you get something major wrong.
Thanks for co-hosting. :)
IWSG #184 until Alex culls the list again.
I took geometry when I was a freshman.
ReplyDeleteOutside of a couple teachers who might notice, I'd say don't worry about it.
Find someone who lives in New York, or used to live there, and ask them for some details. Maybe one of your commentors lived there.
Thanks again for co-hosting today!
Thanks for co-hosting today! Love your enthusiasm for your story and you're on your third go round! That's wonderful.My blog today is looking for tips on re-writing. Bet you have several! Way back when I was in school in Central IL, geometry was a sophomore class too. Is your mc in private or public school? Maybe private would allow him to take geometry?. Or he could have tested out of algebra I? I agree with the commenters who believe most readers wouldn't think twice about it. Best of luck with your WIP!
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately writing involves a lot of sitting, which leads to weight gain. I make a point of taking a break between 10am-1pm to use my elliptical trainer for at least an hour each day, but shoot for two hours. It's not easy, but it's something THAT I make myself do. Trust me, as you get older it's harder to rev-up the metabolism. Best of luck with your re-writes & it's nice to meet you.
ReplyDeleteUgh, I hear you - I worry about accuracy so much, too!! For what it's worth, here;s my two cents: New York is such a huge city that everyone who lives there has a different experience (and I did live there for a few years :) ), so even a native New Yorker won't know how accurate or not accurate your story is as long as you get the basics right (geography, subway, etc.) I think you can get away with making everything else up, as long as you capture the essence of the city, the feeling of being there, the hustle and craziness and diversity and danger and excitement and dirt and noise (and you get the idea). And if you've visited plenty of times, you can do that. \
ReplyDeleteAs for the school math system, no, I wouldn't worry about that. It's poetic license. Only a kid in a New York school will know it's different, and I really doubt that kid will care. Keep the Geometry!
I hear ya about stressing when you haven't lived in the setting you're writing. That happened for me for Chicago, Annapolis, and Pensacola. I probably missed some key elements for realism but I guess all we can do is research our best. Congrats on getting to the third draft and keep it going!
ReplyDeleteMy weight is the highest it's been--too much sitting in both of my careers. I exercise an hour a day but clearly that doesn't counteract all my sitting!
SO NYC is totally different than anywhere, but kids make it into advanced classes all the time. It's not difficult to do. All they need is a teacher who supports the idea and a parent persistent enough to make sure it happens. I did live in NYC, but I didn't go to school there. I knew some kids going to school, and their perspective on life was eye-opening. I'd suggest you reach out through social media and find yourself a consultant--a young writer or readaholic in NYC who would be kind enough to read and advise for you. That's seriously the way to go if you want an authentic picture. Good luck!
ReplyDeleteI know the feeling! I'm super-paranoid about getting details wrong. But ultimately, it's the story that matters! :)
ReplyDeleteHope you have a great birthday!
Thanks for co-hosting, Sarah. We have a lot in common. I hate ruining surprises too. I'm stuck on my 1st draft, and I'm trying to get fit. My current WIP takes place in UK and I've never been there. I'm going next spring, but still. My first novel took place in Seattle and I found a few great betareaders to help me out. Made all the difference. Plus I made the marina a fictional place to fit the story. Best of luck.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't obsess over it. Really, it's a detail that I don't think a lot of people would pick up on as being wrong, much less remember enough about what classes they took when to question it. If the story works best with what might be a small mistake, I say trust the story and stick with it.
ReplyDeleteSarah: I wouldn't question to much of the "accuracy" if the story/scenes are believable. Every school district is different. The book I am currently reading (which is laced with "!!'s") has incredible detail about South Vietnam. I don't know if it's accurate, but it's starting to get in the way of the story. Unless your story is about a certain school in particular, than I say go with what works.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on this--how accurate IS accurate enough? My story's set in NYC also. NY is now a Common Core state so that'll really through a wrench in your plotting calculations. Though, it'll make it easier--just check corestandards.org.
ReplyDeleteHi, Sarah,
ReplyDeleteThanks for hosting. I understand your issues and I hope someone will be able to clarify for you. Would a Google search help? I think you should at least find out though because it's good to have the details right and the last thing want when the book is published, is for an unforgiving reader to leave a bad review because of an inaccuracy. I don't believe in getting bogged down in setting, but good visuals are important and don't have to be terribly detailed. Good luck.
Like a few other people have said, I would suggest you find a handful of beta readers in NYC and ask them to point out any glaring issues with the setting. Most people are not going to care if you don't get every detail correct as long as you make an effort.
ReplyDeleteHappy almost Birthday.
In Florida, I had algebra in my freshman year and geometry in my sophomore year. I think being true to your story is more important, but if it does worry you could you possible change your character from a freshman to a sophomore? If not, I don't think anyone would ridicule you for what type of math class your character is in.
ReplyDeleteHappy (early) Birthday! I think you have great restraint to not peek at your gift. ;)
I am freaking old, and I didn't go to hs in NYC, though I did live there two years after college. Maybe this will help (still)... there were some kids who took Geometry freshman year and some who took Algebra freshman year. I think it is reasonable to assume that is still the case. I think the kids who really excelled in math (the smaller percentage) took Algebra in the 8th grade and then Geometry in the 9th. In other words, I think it is okay if you right it that he is taking Geometry in 9th grade so long as he is GOOD at advanced math.
ReplyDeleteFor more generalized stuff about NYC I recommend watching the now cancelled TV show Gossip Girl. It was actually filmed in NYC and the characters are in high school (private school, of course) when it begins. Even though it may not be helpful in terms of the characters (because they are the uber-rich) it might be helpful in terms of setting, which is the thing that is giving you grief.
I go on research binges with my writing. Recently, I discovered that Aladdin was Chinese. Yeah. That threw me for a loop. Took my writing in a whole different direction.
ReplyDeleteI find taking walks helps me both physically and mentally. When I'm sitting in front of a computer, it's hard to form a complete picture of my story because I'm focused on a screen. But when I'm walking, I'm not focused on anything and my mind can act out as needed. Helps me with tricky plot points.
Loni
I really should proofread. I have a migraine right now and my thinking is *not right.* Correction: I think it is okay if you WRITE it that he is taking....
ReplyDeleteI was a math teacher for 8 years. When I was in junior high, I was in an accelerated math program and took algebra in 7th, Geometry 8th, and algebra II/Trig in 9th. There were maybe 20 of us, and a lot dropped out along the way, but for 9th grade we went to the high school for math. 1st period, then a bus picked us up and drove us back to school. I missed 1/3 of band everyday.
ReplyDeleteThat was MD. Here in CO my youngest is in a similar program and took the same classes as me. However, 9th is at the high school whereas my 9th grade wasn't, so they gave all those advanced kids an "are you ready for a junior level class as a freshman" test. Though he passed, they recommended he take geometry again because he was missing some concepts. Not surprising, considering he missed almost a month of school with asthma complication.
All that to say, you're writing fiction, so if anyone calls you on it (which I seriously doubt anyone will) then just say, "Yeah, I made that up. Needed it for the story. Which is also all made up."
Thanks for visiting me today and for following. Really cheered me up!
Tina @ Life is Good
On the Open Road! @ Join us for the 4th Annual Post-Challenge Road Trip!
Research gets me sometimes too! I wrote about a deaf character and I'm a little paranoid about getting her right. Some details are okay to fudge a little because it is fiction. It won't be perfect! I've never written about a big city. All my novels take place in Iowa because I live here. :)
ReplyDeleteI tend to love research too much! Can you make your protag younger? Would that help?
ReplyDeleteWell now, you've asked for advice so I'll give you some. But first, doubt always throws me for a loop and I find it hard to write. So you are not alone.
ReplyDeleteWhy not put them in a private school? Then you can do anything you want.
Nancy
I say don't worry about it. There will always be schools that don't follow the same pattern as the others and this will be one of them. I'm writing a story about a high school freshman who's taking a chemistry class, even though chemistry isn't usually taken until after the freshmen year. I'm sure there's a school out there somewhere that does it.
ReplyDeleteThanks for co-hosting the IWSG this month.
I get stuck on those kinds of things, too, but I'm getting better at letting them go during the draft stages and worrying about them later. If what's important to your story events is that your MC fails the math class and not so much what kind of math class it is, that should be the focus for you as the writer so it will become the focus for your reader.
ReplyDeleteMadeline @ The Shellshank Redemption
I agree with others, don't worry about it. But I know that is easier said than done because I would be freaking out like you are LOL.
ReplyDeleteHope you have a wonderful birthday coming up!
Happy early birthday. Thanks for co hosting today.
ReplyDeleteAs for the story, it's possible that some schools vary in their curriculum, in the grades different subjects are taught. N Y has a lot of schools. Some probably have special classes for gifted students and classes for slower students. Write what your heart tells you to. :)
I feel like as long as your writing is good, you'll have those NYC sticklers, but most won't care what they were supposed to take lol.
ReplyDeleteHmm I'm from NY but I'm not sure how different the school system is from everywhere else. I know there are lots of advance classes & opportunities, HS students taking College Courses, College students being "gifted" etc. I don't think it would unbelievable if you give a good reason. Plus the details are more for you. School is way different already than when I went and its ever changing. As for places, YOU TUBE it! Good luck! :D
ReplyDeleteIt sometimes feels as if I'm in a bog and I can't move through it. That story just won't come. So I understand how you feel. As to your story accuracy, I've had to revise mine, especially re: technology. I had one story with a flip phone and by the time it came out, flip phones were dinosaurs.
ReplyDeleteGreat co-hosting today.
I took Course I (algebra) in ninth grade and Course II (geometry) in tenth grade. That's still how the NYS school system is structured, though I could see a ninth grade taking geometry if he had already taken Course I in eighth grade, on the advanced track. I knew some people in eighth grade who were smart enough to qualify for the ninth grade-level classes, just as I was always in the English track a year ahead of my chronological grade.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI sit a lot, too. I force myself to go workout every afternoon to counter that.
ReplyDeleteIf the student is in an advanced program or a college fast track program, he'd be a class or two ahead. I think it would work.
Phew.
ReplyDeleteThat's a lot of thought.
I think each living experience in NYC is going to be different.
As for school, I don't think anyone is going to call you on that kind of detail. If they do, they have too much time on their hands.
Best of luck.
Thanks for co-hosting.
Heather
Thank you for co-hosting the August IWSG, Sarah. I'm glad to see you received a positive answer to your dilemma from Carrie-Anne above (and several others.) To answer your question, (IMHO) it is important to be accurate in the areas that matter. The fact that you stress, really stress, how important your Geometry scenes are magnifies that importance.
ReplyDeleteBest of Success with your WIP and your writing career!
Aloha
Thank you so much for co-hosting this month! I have NO idea how you can have the willpower to leave a gift sitting there on your dresser for SO long.
ReplyDeleteAs far as your dilemma I don't think there is any reason to change it. Maybe add a reason for him taking the Geometry. His school maybe being in a test district for a different curriculum or something like that. Good Luck and Happy, Happy Birthday!
doreenmcgettigan.com
I think your fiance might be a little cruel to leave the gift lying out like that. I'm wondering if your weight gain is because you've gained muscle weight (which is heavier than fat). I'm in the same boat when it comes to willpower - or lack of it rather.
ReplyDeleteAbout your book. I went to school in NY state. I don't recall when I took anything, except Calculus because that was my senior year and the mean mean teacher wouldn't allow me to take AP. Little did I know it was my right. Wait. I digress. To be honest, if the story is really good people won't be taking the time out to remember exactly when they took Geometry or if your hero should be in an algebra class or not.
Thanks for co-hosting!
ReplyDeleteI believe accuracy is important, but I don't believe that you really have to chose between inaccuracy and rewriting everything. Although I don't live in New York, when my son entered high school, he took a placement test for math because he had advanced quickly in middle school. The high school used those scores to allow him and other students in a similar position to go into the appropriate level of math. Within the group of friends that came from the same school, some of his friends were allowed to move one year ahead and others two. I bet if you call a school district in New York, you'll find that students can do something similar. Good luck.
These are the kinds of details that drive me crazy too so I feel for you, but I see it as a small matter and therefore I agree with the comments favoring the story over accuracy here and anyway if your version wasn't spot on and it still bothers you you can make a small note in the book explaining it, you will even get to be quicker than those picky readers out there :) good luck.
ReplyDeleteAh the struggles and bumps of writing scenes, finishing, and all the other. Good Luck. I hope you find that happy place, and less frustration. Here is one of the best books on description I have read, and found helpful and inspiring. Descriptions by Monica Woods from 1999 (can only get used now) It is from a series of books called the Elements of Fiction. A favorite of mine.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/Description-Elements-Fiction-Writing-Monica/dp/0898799082/ref=tmm_pap_title_popover?ie=UTF8&qid=1406749680&sr=8-1
Best Wishes and Much Success,
Juneta at Writer's Gambit
Best of luck with your revisions. School systems in different places have classes at different times. They also change over time. If I was reading your book, I would just assume that school system has the classes in a slightly different order. Now, if you had him taking trig before algebra or geometry, that would be a logic problem. : )
ReplyDeleteI think it varies from school district to district and even within states. I think you'd be okay. A fact checker might call you on it, at that point you'd need to decide if you can change the grade they're in to the one that has geometry, or have him or her fail or be super smart and in the other class. It happens all over the country!
ReplyDeleteAlso, give yourself a break with the weight loss. If you're exercising more, you're gaining muscles. Also, it takes a while to truly adjust. Don't weigh yourself every day. And, keep up the healthy attitude, that's the most important!
Thanks for co-hosting this month!
Play off the Page
I am editing and doing massive research as well, but my book is memoirs, so accuracy is more important. As for the weight loss, I see a nutritionist once per week. When I do what she says I lose weight, but I rarely listen. However, just being accountable helps so I am not gaining anymore.
ReplyDeleteLOL, math geek here (raises hands), I totally understand being unable to cut on the math proofs!!! :-) Look, schools can vary so much even within the same place. Just take a poetic license, so long as your characters ring true and yoru story is captivating, your readers will be with you. The rest are just details! :-)
ReplyDeleteI have to say, it would be torture to have to look at a birthday gift for an entire week. I wonder if you shake it, does it rattle? On the math issue, is it possible that your character is advanced in math so he or she was put in geometry?
ReplyDeleteThanks for co-hosting this month.
Since most of my stories are based in CT, I try to be as accurate as possible. In regards to characters, like women for example, I often ask friends/co-workers for advice on things like clothing, hair, physical appearance. That way, I don't write a character that may have stepped straight out Playboy.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, you can never do too much research, but ultimately, you have to create something that melds all those prevailing opinions together.
Father Nature's Corner
I know that feeling. When I was working on my one story, which I ended up classifying as Speculative Fiction, I was freaking out over if I had the sci-fi elements right and if it made sense. In the end, I trusted myself and now all I can do is hope for the best. Good luck to you!
ReplyDeleteI wish I could help with that accuracy dilemma, but I don't know a thing about NY schools or ages/classes. Sorry! I do love that you're so dedicated to it though. The last few times I've hit something like that, I ended up either shelving the project or just rewriting the whole thing. I guess I get frustrated too easily. :) Great post!
ReplyDeleteWhoa, I feel your pain. I one time came across a blogger tearing a part a book and its inaccuracy regarding something or another and how it had turned him off. O.O I often worry about details as well and end up watering it a bit so that those details are no longer important. Just *how* important is it for your MC to show what subjects he is taking? If it is a HUGE sway in your book, then I would set up a survey targeting New Yorkers... If it doesn't matter in your plot (ex, if he doesn't become Algebra Man by his sophomore year), then I'd gloss it over.
ReplyDeleteJust my thoughts. ;)
♥.•*¨Elizabeth¨*•.♥
I work in the school system in Australia. Curriculum is always changing and subjects change to suit. Unless your reader is an educational expert from NY, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
ReplyDeleteAll the best with your writing!
Sorry to hear that you're being tortured by un-opened gifts.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I feel your pain with the weight loss issue. For me, I lose a few pounds, get sick, and then gain it all back while in recovery. It’s very frustrating cycle.
As far as your research goes, being accurate is important, but I don’t think most educational systems are that rigid. I’m no expert on the NY school system, but there have be systems in place to accommodate those willing to go the extra mile. When I was in high school, in VA, I took all my sophomore classes my freshman year because I was skipping a grade.
I think the fact that you’re concern about this aspect of your book and that you’re making strides in research, proves that you’re on top of your game. I’m sure the story will be great.
Thanks for co-hosting this month.
The unopened gift would drive me crazy, lol. As far as setting it boils down to what you want. I mean there will always be people who point things out, but most people reading a book are just buying into the characters and the story. Good luck on getting it down.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you're doing what you can to keep it as accurate as possible. Beyond that, don't worry. Sure you might have some NY city natives find fault, but I bet that's not uncommon. The rest of us will have no idea. ;)
ReplyDeleteI think you are doing the best you can to make it accurate but not lose the story. Sometimes I have read stories that were so much wanting to be accurate they lost the story, had me bored and I lost interest. If movies worked like that, there would hardly be any films on the screen at all. Heck in one Old Errol Flynn Flick Custer was the hero!
ReplyDeleteI don't think that little detail will cause issues. You could always stick in an explanation like the guidance office got his classes mixed up and he had to take Geometry with the sophmores (and any issues from that with the older classmates) and would be stuck taking Algebra the following year with younger kids. ;)
ReplyDeleteI've recently talked to a friend who is concerned about accuracy in their settings. It can be tricky, but as long as you get the generalities right (and there aren't major, recognizable landmarks in your story) you can pretty much get away with anything. As with the math, I give you props for using it as a major plot in your story. Boy do I stink at it! Good luck to you! Oh, and thanks for co-hosting this month :D ~ Jen
ReplyDeleteI think that you should remain true to the story!
ReplyDeleteThe majority of your readers who reside outside of NY may not know any better...
Thank you for co-hosting the IWSG this month!
Writer In Transit
Hmm, you could invent a reason or excuse why the MC is geometry. It's your world, after all.
ReplyDeleteAnd as afar as overall setting, I love when setting is vibrant and real in a book, and that specific story can't be told anyplace else. I am not a fan of Generic town USA with no characteristics. It's definitely easier to invent a town based on a real one since then you don't run into those pesky research inconsistencies; I've done both, set in major cities, and also in made up ones.
It helps to talk to people who live in those cities and draw as much from your own experience, and go from there. Even the apartments in NYC are different than say, Des Moines. So crafting that will really enhance your book. You sound on the right track if you are down to the details you are considering :)
As a former teacher (just left the profession in June) I say stick to your Geometry! The only thing you can be sure of in education is that they keep changing what they think "works." It doesn't really matter if Geometry isn't studied in a certain grade *right now.* The courses will probably be rearranged soon enough. (Testing is what drove me out. When I reached a point where I was doing more testing than teaching and I didn't even get a say about what work counted toward the report card, I was out the door.)
ReplyDeleteAs for making sure that the NYC setting is true for people who grew up there, you could search out a beta reader who can look for those details. I did that for one of my books that was set in Manhattan.